Indian Holocaust My Father`s Life and Time: Fwd: Peace Mumbai Re: Fwd: [Citizen-Mumbai] PRESS CONFERENCE & PROTEST AGAINST LIFTING OF JAMES LAINE BOOK ON CHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Feroze Mithiborwala <feroze.moses777@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: Peace Mumbai Re: Fwd: [Citizen-Mumbai] PRESS CONFERENCE & PROTEST AGAINST LIFTING OF JAMES LAINE BOOK ON CHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ

And while you are at it Suklaji,

try n attempt a coherent reply to Kishore's writings - he is far more better informed & knowledgeable on this issue that both of us put together on the historicity & political roots of this particular controversy.

no more inane ramblings -

read, try & understand Kishores' informed piece & reply - to Kishore.

regards

feroze

On 13 July 2010 11:04, Feroze Mithiborwala <feroze.moses777@gmail.com> wrote:

are yaar shuklaji, my caps lock was on - so that was what happened - and u can interpret it that way - its - ok, nothing better can b expected of u - breathing down my back as usual - find a better job

Rohini is the only person who stood by us during & after 26/11 & i respect her for that - most people have seen the ss/mns on the tv screens n hv got taken in by tht line - as i said - arjun dangleji the RPI's - com prakash reddy - CPI - all are taking tht position - n we r one on tht.

you sound more & more desperate, clutching at straws - i guess after your daily debacle on obama - u will only get more shrill n worse - read about obama's guarantees to the Israeli nuke programme.

you've got it wrong - we said - go ahead with the book - apart from the few lines whispered into the ears of senor laine - by 14 brahmins who have done it on the basis of an anti-Shivaji agenda - this goes all the way back to when this lot targeted him for his political & social views - that is why Shivaji Maharaj is loved by the Bahujans of Maharashtra.

And as we said - the issue is of a few lines - based on some stupid whispering campaign - no research - which is meant to b the norm for any historical work.

under freedom of expression - amongst many caluses - the issue over the matter of 'insult' - is part of it. that is where we base our stand. - u guys are more understanding n sympathetic towards Muslims - than the Dalits & OBC's.

even after the government passes the law - it will be interesting to see who are the icons - definitely - i can only imagine - there is a fine line between critique & an insult - i'm willing to tread it - always have.

& stop boring me yaar - u have lost too many issues on foreign policy with me in any case - o-blimey.

regards

feroze

On 13 July 2010 08:45, Sukla Sen <sukla.sen@gmail.com> wrote:
Capital letters, i.e. shouting and screaming, reserved for Rohini!
Not too surprising.
(Now, one can expect in response to this one.)

The book, as the press reports go, is an exploration of myths - history of myths. Not history per se.

No one here is defending the book. Except obviously for Feroze and Kishor all others here stood up for freedom of conscience, academic enquiry and free speech and against any gag on the ground of blasphemy.

The state government is coming with a general law on books banning defamation/desecration of icons/idols to the satisfaction of the fascist opponents of free speech.
That's the outcome.

Just recall what Kunda had warned.

Once the Act is in place, if at all, be ready for more fascist tamasha with routine display of ugly muscle power and all!

Sukla

On 13 July 2010 04:20, Feroze Mithiborwala <feroze.moses777@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Avinash bhai, you are amongst the few non-Brahmins that I know that find it amusing.

I also thank you for getting me the entire quote.

And that is what we are saying - this joke as you say is not as innocent as it looks.

And quiet interesting that all the ones who created this joke about Shivaji Maharaj's parentage, all belonged to a particular caste & they have all been identified & named.

Thus the simple solution is to delete these few offensive lines & carry on with the rest of the book.

And as we have repeatedly said - no freedom is absolute - people have felt & rightly so that these lines need to be expunged, as they believe & rightly so that their icons have been insulted.

And Kishore has written a good piece.

Tomorrow, there is a meeting at the Marathi Patrakar at 2.30pm, where Retd Justice Kolse Patil, Purshottam Khedekarji, Brigadier Sudhir Sawant, Arjun Dangle, S S Yadav kaka & many representatives of Dalit-OBC-Maratha organizations will be present.

And at least you should have understood the issue by now - it is about caste struggle - as well as freedom of expression.

The state is already panicking & so is the RSS - Mr. Bal Thackeray is already trying to divert the issue to Marathi & FM radios.

The Brahmanical sections did not have a clue as to the self-goal that they were about to strike.

Regards

Feroze

On 13 July 2010 03:37, Avinash Kadam <avinashh50@gmail.com> wrote:

It is amusing this thread carried thus far by those who have not read the book by James Lane "Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India"

Quote

As for the James Lane Book, we are only opposed to the few lines on page number 93, which seek to question the very parentage of Shivaji Maharaj.

   On that page, James Lane writes that it was the whispering of 12 Punekar Brahmins in the Bhandarkar institute that told him that the father of Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj was Dadaji Kondev (a Brahmin.....
Unquote

Feroze's quotation of James Lane is totally wrong.

Here it is what Jame Lane writes on page 93 of his book:-

    " The repressed awareness that Shivaji had an absentee father is also revealed by the fact that Maharashtrians tell jokes naughtily suggesting that his guardian Dadaji Kinddev was his biological father. In a sense, because Shivaji's father had little influence on his son, for many narrators it was important to supply him with father replacement, Dadaji and latter Ramdas......."

   It is true that the above quoted piece by James Lane is a mockery of historical writing. How one can take naughtily told jokes as evidence of historical fact. James Lane's book is full of such slips. It is not at all a good example of writing of history. So one can severely criticise the book and bring about the linkages of James Lane's writing with the tradition of Brahmanical interpretations of Shivaji's history.

Banning the book is not acceptable.

Avinash

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 1:39 PM, kishorda_jagtap@yahoo.co.in <kishorda_jagtap@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Sry mainey by mistek likha k i m totaly against of Brahmin

Actualy muze likhna thha i m totaly against of brahmanwaad

Sleep of key board of nokia

Sent from my Nokia phone

-----Original Message-----
From: Sukla Sen
Sent: 11/07/2010 1:20:30 pm
To: peace-mumbai; cairo-rafah; citizen-mumbai; awami_bharat@googlegroups.com; arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com; grey-youth-movement@googlegroups.com; mumbai_intellectuals_voice_and_media_source@yahoogroups.com; muslim_youth_connection@yahoogroups.com; snajeebr@gmail.com; aamir.edresy@gmail.com; shanul_s@yahoo.com; fg-discussions; akhaliq@commitindia.com; Palash Biswas; bharat-chintan@googlegroups.com
Cc: Feroze Mithiborwala; anandpat@gmail.com
Subject: Fwd: [Citizen-Mumbai] Re: PRESS CONFERENCE & PROTEST AGAINST LIFTING OF JAMES LAINE BOOK ON CHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: anand patwardhan <anandpat@gmail.com>
Date: 11 July 2010 11:48

Subject: Re: [Citizen-Mumbai] Re: PRESS CONFERENCE & PROTEST AGAINST LIFTING
OF JAMES LAINE BOOK ON CHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ

To: free-binayaksen@googlegroups.com

dear feroze and friends
i must repeat as this never seems to sink in (as a filmmaker who has tried
to talk about this for decades i feel like a failure when my close friends
still do not reflect):

the concept that women must be *PURE* is a deeply Bramhinical, patriarchal
and fascist concept.

unfortunately those who carry this historical cultural baggage of
patriarchal religion (as they all are except to some extent, buddhism) never
understand where their own emotion springs from.

feroze and allies, without disrespect, i ask you to again reflect on what
makes you angry without reading the book ??? how is your reaction different
from the reaction of Savarkarites when they perceive the difilement of
Bharat Mata, from christian fanatics who defend the VIRGIN mary, from
religions that insist that women's sexuality must be suppressed and hidden
inside a veil ?

i do not demand that you break with your allies and friends whose judgement
you so much trust (did any of them read the book??? if so where did they get
it???) and whose propensity to fascist violence you so conveniently forget,
but when your own common sense and instinct tells you that you are embarked
on a wrong mission, and yet you refuse to change track out of loyalty to
your friends, then i think you do an injustice both to yourself and to your
friends.

btw if you brain tells you that your lawyer lost because he was a malayali,
i would like to say that my lawyer won because he was a malayali!!!

anand

On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Daniel Mazgaonkar <

daniel.mazgaonkar@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Feroze,
>

> I totally agree with Sukla. So I do not repeat what he has emphasised from
> his heart.
>
> I only say, that in your reply to all of us, you go to the extent of
> comparing bigger evil, which you assume is siding with Sambhaji Brigade,
> because they do no violence, but you accept that they attacked Bhandarkar
> Insti. and then you go on saying many of us hob nob with leftist who do more
> violence.
>
> Just re-consider Feroze. This again is a very dangerous argument.
>
> Why dont you just think that the Hindutwa's anger began gathering slowly
> step by step for Gandhi, which ultimately culminated in his assasination.
> And shamelessly they call it "Vadh", you know that.
>
> Just consider all these points plus what others like Sukla have brought to
> your notice.
>
> See, we are actually struggling against a very big "Rakshas", which we
> recognise, each one of us, in a different way. You work on Gaza prob,
> Palestinians, we work on globalization, some work on Bhopal, some work on
> women's issues, some on education, of childrens etc. some work on slums. but
> unfortunately, we do not recognise that these are all the different "dresses
> of the one and the same Bahurupia" identity. And we must all stand together
> to give a last and the best fight of all uptil now.
>
> This message, by the way, was very loud and clear in Dr. Anil Sadgopal's
> yesterday's talk. But so many of you have other important things to do, so
> you never attend.
>
> Daniel.
>
>
> On 11 July 2010 07:27, Sukla Sen <sukla.sen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This culture of banning books, the ugly display of muscle powers, the
>> motto of Democracy for Bush and Autocracy for Me is deeply disturbing.
>>
>> If one has a problem with a book, or a portion of a book, which one can
>> very well have, one is welcome to contest.
>> But demanding a ban on the ground of sacrilege is truly disturbing. That
>> too when it comes with the threat of using violence.
>>
>> As I've not read the book, I've personally nothing to defend the book nor
>> there is any point in my taking up cudgel against it.
>> But the essential point is trying to gag the voice is rather imprudent and
>> morally unacceptable.
>>
>> Here there is another disturbing trait. The attempt to play up the
>> historical frictions between Bramhins and Marathas in the implied belief
>> that it will act as a glue for a projected Bahujan-Muslim alliance.
>> Even if we overlook the ethical basis for such exclusionist alliances
>> based on birth, the implied assumption is all Bramhins are the historical
>> legatees of the sins of their Bramhin ancestors and Marathas the virtues of
>> their Maratha ancestors. And they must be treated accordingly.
>> This implied call for righting *now* the historical wrongs committed in
>> the *past*, too familiar otherwise, is evidently too dangerous.
>>
>> Sukla
>>

>> On 11 July 2010 06:50, Feroze Mithiborwala <feroze.moses777@gmail.com>wrote:

>>
>>> Dear Kavita, Jyoti, Mallika Sarabai, Anand bhai & Daniel bhai,
>>>
>>> As for the James Laine Book, we are only opposed to the few lines on page
>>> number 93, which seek to question the very parentage of Shivaji Maharaj.
>>>
>>> On that page, James Lane writes that it was the whispering of 12 Punekar
>>> Brahmins in the Bhandarkar institute that told him that the father of
>>> Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj was Dadaji Kondev (a Brahmin), thus insulting the
>>> very memory of Rajmata Jijau & claiming that Shivaji was a Brahmin - whilst
>>> conveniently forgetting that Shivaji Maharaj was refused his Rajabhishek by
>>> the Brahmin priests of Maharashtra & that the first fatal atack on Shivaji
>>> Maharaj was by Bhaskar Rao Kulkarni, another Brahmin & not by Afzal Khan.
>>>
>>> The Dalit-OBC & Maratha organizations are going to find out who these 12
>>> Brahmins were.
>>>
>>> There is no other problem with the book. Many articles &
>>> books critiquing Shiavji Maharaj have been written & none have objected &
>>> called for a ban.
>>>
>>> The only demand is to delete those few lines & the rest of the book is
>>> very good.
>>>
>>> I have personally not read the book & I have not even been able to obtain
>>> a copy of the same.
>>>
>>> But I trust my Dalit-OBC-Maratha friends in what they say - & they have
>>> never knowingly misled me.
>>>
>>> The greater fault in this entire matter lies with the Maharashtra
>>> government for failing to win the battle mainly due to their lackadaisical
>>> attitude. They had a lawyer from Kerala defending their case, whilst they
>>> could have got the best from Bombay. Intriguing.
>>>
>>> True, Sambhaji Brigade did attack the Bhandarker institute & we, the
>>> Awami Bharat or Bharat Bachao Andolan - have not supported that action.
>>>
>>> Most of the Secular & Left political parties that we all hob-nob with are
>>> far more violent & have killed far more people than the Sambhaji Brigade.
>>> And to my knowledge the Sambhaji Brigade has not killed anybody. Do correct
>>> me if I am wrong.
>>>
>>> The other is the Maratha movement in Maharashtra, especailly the Maratha
>>> Seva Sangh that is trying to break the shackles of Brahmanic Religion &
>>> Culture that the dominant Maratha castes still follow. The Shiv Dharma
>>> movement was initiated by them as well amongst other key people as well -
>>> namely A H Salunke.
>>>
>>> The Maratha Seva Sangh has blunted the anti-Dalit & anti-Muslim edge of
>>> the RSS lobbies active within the Maratha community, as the overwhelming
>>> atrocities on the Dalit community have been perpetrated by the Marathas.
>>>
>>> And today also at the Press Conference we made it very clear that we will
>>> oppose the James Laine book through non-violent stayagraha & will not be
>>> part of any violent action.
>>>
>>> I understand the sentiment with which people are reacting, but our ground
>>> realities are for us to assess. Many a Left Union works with the Shiv Sena &
>>> its affiliates, just as the Left Unions do work with the BJP & its Unions,
>>> both at the State & the National level.
>>>
>>> Though for me the Sambhaji Brigade is a Secular organization & I know
>>> them personally & all our Dalit & OBC friends attend their meetings & we
>>> have not found them otherwise.
>>>
>>> Our friends from other castes could have a different opinion.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Feroze
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 July 2010 16:47, Kavita Srivastava <kavisriv@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Feroze,
>>>>
>>>> I was very disturbed to read your email. Not only do you believe in
>>>> promoting undemocratic values like banning books but I also see the
>>>> name of Sambhaji Brigade which is your partner in organising this
>>>> press conference.
>>>>
>>>> I remember very clearly that Sambhaji Brigade had lead the attacks on
>>>> the Bhandarkar Oriental research Institute in 2003 when James Laine's
>>>> book was out. They had destroyed the Institute. I remember hearing
>>>> the tragedy of it all from the late Prof Dilip Chitre's himself. How
>>>> call you ally with those who epxress their opinion with a lathi. If
>>>> there was a difference with the book there are other democratic ways
>>>> of responding
>>>>
>>>> And Feroze, while we all have tremendous problems with the biases of
>>>> the Judiciary. But you cannot say that a judgement of upholding the
>>>> Freedom of Speech and expression is out of a Brahmanical bias of the
>>>> SC. That is being very short sighted. I hope you will call of this
>>>> programm of yours and also delink yourself from organisations like
>>>> sambhaji brigade. Which are clones of the Shiv Sena.
>>>>
>>>> Kavita
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Feroze Mithiborwala
>>>> <feroze.moses777@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > SHIVRAJYA PARTY / SAMBHAJI BRIGADE / BHARAT BACHAO ANDOLAN / MARATHI
>>>> BHARTI
>>>> > PROTEST AGAINST LIFTING OF JAMES LAINE BOOK ON CHATRAPATI SHIVAJI
>>>> MAHARAJ
>>>> > PRESS CONFERENCE: MARATHI PATRAKAR, CST / JULY 10, SATURDAY, 2009 /
>>>> 3-4pm.
>>>> > FOLLOWED BY A PROTEST- JAIL BHARO ANDOLAN & COURT ARREST: AZAD
>>>> MAIDAN, CST / JULY 10, SATURDAY, 2009 / 4-5pm
>>>> > WE OPPOSE THE LIFTING OF THE BAN ON THE BOOK BY JAMES LAINE THAT HAS
>>>> INSULTED THE MEMORY OF CHATRAPATI SHIVAJI MAHARAJ BY QUESTIONING HIS VERY
>>>> FAMILY ANTECEDENTS. HIS VERY MOTHER, THE REVERED RAJMATA JIJAU, WHO IS A
>>>> VENERATED FIGURE WITHIN THE NON-BRAHMIN MASSES OF MAHARASHTRA HAS BEEN THE
>>>> TARGET OF THIS CALUMNY & THUS THE UPROAR AMONGST THE BAHUJAN-DALIT, OBC &
>>>> MARATHA MASSES & THIS CUTS ACROSS ALL RELIGIONS OF THE MARATHI PEOPLE.
>>>> > THIS IS CLEARLY THE RESULT OF THE STRANGLEHOLD OF THE CASTEIST
>>>> BRAHMANICAL FORCES WITHIN THE BUREAUCRACY, ESPECIALLY THE JUDICIARY.
>>>> > WE THUS ALSO DEMAND THAT THE PRINCIPLE OF RESERVATION BE EXTENDED TO
>>>> THE JUDICIARY, IF THIS DISCRIMINATION & CASTEIST BIAS IS EVER TO END.
>>>> > BRIGADIER SUDHIR SAWANT (STATE PRESIDENT, SHIVRAJYA PARTY),
>>>> > KISHORE JAGTAP (NATIONAL PRESIDENT, MARATHI BHARTI),
>>>> > FEROZE MITHIBORWALA (NATIONAL PRESIDENT, BHARAT BACHAO ANDOLAN),
>>>> > JYOTI BADEKAR, VILAS GAIKWAD, YAWAR ALI KAZI, SANJAY SAKHARKAR, PRAMOD
>>>> SHINDE, JAGDISH NAGARKAR, MULNIWASI MALA, PRAVEEN AMRE, SUDHIR DAWALE, SHYAM
>>>> SONAR, AVINASH KAMBLE, HARSHAVARDHAN VARTAK, PRAVEEN BANGERA, POOJA BADEKAR,
>>>> AARTI BONKAR, AMOL MADAME & OTHERS.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kavita Srivastava
>>>> (General Secretary) PUCL Rajasthan
>>>>
>>>> Address for correspondence :
>>>>
>>>> 76, Shanti Niketan Colony, Kisan Marg, Barkat Nagar, Jaipur-302015
>>>> Tel. 0141-2594131
>>>> mobile: 9351562965
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Feroze Mithiborwala
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Citizen-Mumbai" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to citizen-mumbai@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

>>> citizen-mumbai+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<citizen-mumbai%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>

>>> .
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/citizen-mumbai?hl=en.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --

>> Peace Is Doable
>>
>> --

>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

>> "Free Binayak Sen" group.
>> To post to this group, send an email to free-binayaksen@googlegroups.com.

>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

>> free-binayaksen+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<free-binayaksen%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>

>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at

>> http://groups.google.com/group/free-binayaksen?hl=en-GB.
>>
>
>
>

> --

> You may charge me with murder --
> Or want of sense
> (We are all of us weak at times):
> But the slightest approach to a false pretence
> Was never among my crimes.
>
> --

> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

> "Free Binayak Sen" group.
> To post to this group, send an email to free-binayaksen@googlegroups.com.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> free-binayaksen+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<free-binayaksen%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>

> .
> For more options, visit this group at

> http://groups.google.com/group/free-binayaksen?hl=en-GB.
>

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

"Free Binayak Sen" group.
To post to this group, send an email to free-binayaksen@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

free-binayaksen+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<free-binayaksen%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>

.
For more options, visit this group at

http://groups.google.com/group/free-binayaksen?hl=en-GB.

--
Peace Is Doable

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Citizen-Mumbai" group.
To post to this group, send email to citizen-mumbai@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to citizen-mumbai+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/citizen-mumbai?hl=en.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Citizen-Mumbai" group.
To post to this group, send email to citizen-mumbai@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to citizen-mumbai+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/citizen-mumbai?hl=en.

--
Feroze Mithiborwala

--
Peace Is Doable

--
Feroze Mithiborwala

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Peace Mumbai" group.
To post to this group, send email to peace-mumbai@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to peace-mumbai+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/peace-mumbai?hl=en.